DEEP DISCUSSION: YOU TUBE VIDEO
THE SAME PEOPLE who I call the INVISIBLES are one long long empire... they constantly re-invent themselves... dna is not going to be anything "they" have not doctored deliberately
I am an American of English descent. Imagine my surprise when my DNA shows that I have a common ancestor with 30 % of the men of Crete. Eight thousand years ago we were on Crete. Four hundred years ago we were in England. People seemed to move around more than I thought.
Indeed they did, and population molecular genetics shows that movement was from Asia Minor to Greece/Greek islands and into Europe. That is reflected in the (de)cline of DNA variability as we go from Greece to the rest of Europe. Not suprisingly, Greeks of today mainly derive from the Myceneans. Also, the Dorian invasion was not invasion at all; It is rather reflected in population movements from the Pindus mountains in Eprus, Greece to Thessaly and the Peloponnese. In fact, there are Greek tribes of today such as the so-called Sarakatsans who derive directly from the ancient Macedonians and other Greeks. In spite of population movements, endogamy is still prevalent!
Linear A still is a mystery, meanwhile Linear B was an early form of Greek. After the collapse with the arrival of «sea-people», a very Dark period in between, it lasts for four centuries. Then Greece start to flourish again.
@Dean Firnatine the writing system of the Minoans ( linear a) could be very well be developed by them, as you mentioned, they were an advanced civilization. I am referring to their language, that most likely is not greek, and could be related with other languages from the near east..
@johnsamu That would only be post Imperial Age, probably more Early Antiquity period. The Roman Republic really did not expand outside the Italian Peninsula and Sicily. Rome was at its height territory- wise in 117 AD. Before 200 BC, Rome still had not unified the entire Italian Peninsula as NW Italy was still not incorporated. Before the Imperial period, the Roman Army was made up of locals from what is modern Italy.
About Homer -- he was the bridge between the Heroic Age and the Historical Age. The Heroic Age was denoted by a lack of writing, but the remembrance of history by stories and poems. Poetry of rhyme and meter were invented NOT for artistic reasons, but to assist in remembering and remembering accurately. They would choose bright children, very young, and then teach them their tales of the past. The Bible was an Heroic poem for centuries before it was written down. The Celts, even though literate, never wrote down their Druid religious teachings. So, as the last Druids died (killed?), the Druid religion was lost. I do NOT believe that Homer created the Iliad & Odyssey, but that he merely wrote down what he had been taught as a boy. Except for the infusion of Gods and mysticism, I think much of the events portrayed are true, especially about the war. Trojan horse? Maybe not, but Troy probably fell by stratagem. Just as Africanus defeated Cartagena by stratagem. Numbers of ships, probably exaggerated. So too, the length of the siege. Still, I believe the war happened. There was a Troy, and it was destroyed.
It was actually destroyed multiple times, and the Myceneans often quarelled with the Hittites on modern day mainland turkey. There's evidence the Myceneans tried to colonise Anatolia (turkey) and supported people there who wanted to revolt against the Hittites, and obviously the Hittites weren't amused by that. It's possible that Troy was one such city in the crossfire between the Hittites and the Myceneans.
Mycenaean greeks had writing, it was called Linear B by archaeologists.
@AMVM True. And so did the Egyptians. The line between the Heroic and Historic is not sharp. I think they lived side by side for awhile. Like the Celts who were literate, but the Druids passed their teaching orally. In Medieval Europe you had the bards, and the Irish had the Shenachie who kept local records in their head, and their knowledge existed along side the written local Church records.
@Lel E They were.
@Snarf McDreary Remember the Trojians had the same Gods as the Greeks. Probably were Ionian Greeks. Half the Gods were with the Myceneas and the other half with Trojians. Troy was called Iliad. The original city destroy by earthquake. The Mscedonian Greeks rebuild the city and name it Troy. When Apostle Paul the angel told to cross over to Macedonia.Paul mention Troy and sail from Troy to Neapolis in Macedonia is where Kavala is today.
This validates what I thought all along. First, there were no stories of outright genocide, that I am aware.of. True, the Sea Peoples were likely locals that have been displaced by war or famine. Trade was disrupted. As disorder spread, so too, did famine and poverty. And, so the ranks of the marauding Sea Peoples increased The end of trade, and continued drought, brought the whole structure of the Bronze Age down.
DNA evidence showed that modern Greeks are on average 70 to 75% identical to the Mycenaeans and Minoans, the later Greek invasions of Ionians, Dorians and Aeolians as you mentioned did not result in the extermination of the Mycenaeans but their assimilation.
Arthur John Evans was born in England, yet is Welsh.There are some fine Mycenean pieces in a museum in Kotor, Montenegro
The Indo-Europeans who brought proto-Greek to the peninsula were probably not very numerous, but able to impose their language and culture because of their horse-based military supremacy, and they had centuries if not millennia to blend into the native population before forming kingdoms. Differences in language and culture do not always indicate differences in genetics.Why is it even surprising that ancient and modern Greeks are the same basic population? It seems natural that the first farmers would form the backbone of the population given that farmers can breed much faster and support a higher population density than hunter-gatherers or nomads. I would expect a certain amount of genetic input from later arrivals out of Asia such as the Slavs and Avars but not enough to significantly change the makeup of the general population.
dc4457 While Greek genome is mostly from the original Neolithic farmers’ DNA, from the Mycenaean Bronze Age the Greeks actually had about ~20% of their genome inherited from the Indo-European invaders from the Pontic steppe, although admittedly this ancestry is much higher in various parts of Northern Europe where the original indigenous populations appear to have been largely wiped out instead of being assimilated through intermarriage. The contrast is stark even in parts of Spain where it appears that the paternal Y-Chomosomal DNA is almost entirely Indo-European and the maternal lines are indigenous non-Indo-European, suggesting the native men were killed off and their women forced to produce offspring with the conquering invaders. As we can see, though, non-Indo-European cultures manages to survive, even the Basques to this day.
I did watch some of your videos. Keep doing the good job The term " Greek " was not in use until after 1000 AD. " Helenos" was the common term, and in my personal opinion the DNA test results have been covered because it could be offended by many today.
This is not really breaking. There are genetic studies in 2013, 2015, and the most conclusive one in 2017 that show the near identical genetic similarities of the Minoan Greeks 5000 years ago, the Mycenean Greeks 3500 years ago up to the modern Greeks today. And it's not so strange. Culturally it's one big continuity in many ways seen. In language, in cultural traditions, agricultural practices, cuisine, continuing from Minoans to Myceneans and picking up again in classical Greece and so on. To arts and so on. The worst period in Greece's history is possibly the Greek Dark ages to which 80% of the population may have died. Also all of the European farmers originate from Greece and Western Anatolia 7000 BCE.Also. Not to forget. Trade and civilization throughout Greece was extensive already in 7000 BCE. With many neolithic sites found dated to these dates in the last 10 years. An important aspect to note is that Obsidian was found even in the northern corners of Greece in Kastoria which shows trade in Greece, as Obsidian is found only on the island of Milos which is 600 km away from Kastoria. And since Greece is 80% mountains and then 6000 islands around the mainland, there are cultural deviations within the Greek geography, but the Minoans and Mycenean cases who come from the Greek islands and the other from the Greek mainland, they are of the same genetic stock.
Maybe Mycenean culture migrated from crete to greece? or perhaps it evolved from minoan to mycenean through the contact between crete and greece, yet coming initially from crete? I'm not too informed on the topic so i ask if anyone knows if mycenean culture is found in both locations how do we know it originates on the mainland? are mycenean artifacts and sites older there?
Crete already had the distinct, much older and sophisticated Minoan culture/civilization (from around 3000 BC). The Minoans were not Greeks (as in, they did not speak a hellenic/greek dialect). In fact, we don't know for sure if their language was even Indo-european.
The Myceneans in the mainland were linguistically Greek. The proto-Greeks seem to have entered the peninsula from the north/north-west (modern-day Albania) around 2000 BC or a bit earlier, subjugated/mixed with the natives (called Pelasgians by the classical Greeks) and established the so-called Mycenean civilization, which really came to flourish around 1600 BC.
From then on, they started to expand across the Aegean, gradually colonizing the islands (including Crete) as well as the coasts of Asia Minor (the Trojan War of the Iliad being one of the ensuing conflicts). This was no doubt facilitated by the apocalyptic Thera explosion that greatly weakened the Cycladic and Minoan civilizations (Minoan Crete had dominated the Aegean until that point). Mycenean culture was, by comparison, much cruder and warrior-like and presents many similarities with the cultures developed by later Indo-european (Celtic, Germanic, Slavic) invasions of/ migrations to Europe from the eastern steppes. Minoan Cretan culture on the other hand had significant Egyptian and Levantine influences.
Well done mate, great content! You seem to know a lot of things, the only thing you missed is that sir Arthur Evans in his work Scripta Minoa, he clearly proves that Linear A is the parent of the Phoenician alphabet. A lot of other scientists agree with him.
This is maybe the most interesting field of modern science that everyone could experience himself. The thorough examination of my own DNA showed a much more interesting and much more diverse journey of my ancestors past. People leaving the shores of Scandinavia (and yes, that came unexpected), others riding over the steppes of the Eurasian grass belt, maybe some helped building the ruins I look at in awe today, another one may sailed through the Mediterranean, or the girl playing in a cave somewhere in todays Russia ten thousands of years ago and yet another on walked through the mountains of the Pamir range. And there are even more, strange, things to be found - still even more mysterious to me.All those theories about "race" are complete nonsense and I, more and more, don't get why people still cling to them like frightened small children to their parents.I really hope that more of the ancient DNA samples get uploaded to sites like Gedmatch so that we can compare our DNA with those people of the past. And rewrite history forever.
After reading a couple of books on genetics (Adam Rutherford' "A Brief History of Everyone Who Ever Lived" and Siddhartha Mukherjee "The Gene") I came to the same conclusion. There is NO such thing as race! We are humans and that is it, differentiated only by culture and language. If we teach our children this then our species can move toward a more harmonious future.
@Moto Mass Thank you for seconding me. I thought the first reaction would be from angry racists telling me otherwise and bullying me. It wouldn't be the first time. It´s always good to read from people like you. Thank you.And thanks for the book tips - I read the first one but the second one is new to me.
Linear B proves that the Mycenaens spoke an archaic type of Greek.But, language use is not always proof of origin. Most who speak English and Spanish today did not originate from the UK or Spain.The biggest clue here (and that's been common knowledge for over 100 years) is burial customs.The Myceneans buried; those who came after cremated.
Ok so if i understand right. The myceneans are Minoans that did not reach Krete so the stayed at mainland greece? And if the myceneans are greeks and the myceneans are also Minoans that means that Minoans were also Greeks?
That would be the logical conclusion or 'proto-Hellenic' might be a better term for it, but I'd like to see more evidence. It has already been known the Mycenaeans were early Greeks, so that really isn't anything new. If the DNA evidence also supports a close genetic connection to Minoan Crete, then that would be quite revealing and indicate Linear A might be the earliest form of written Greek. I had always thought the Minoans were a completely different group of people.
James Aron Same. I always thought that the Minoans were their own group of people that went extinct from a volcano eruption that happened in santorini and then eventually gotten taken over by the Myceneans. But if we go by the theory that the video shows us, it might have been that the myceneans were aware to what was happening to the minoans and wanted to help their own people but were too late so when they arrived at krete, noone was really left from them.
Herodotus stated that the island of Crete was first inhabited by Carians or Cilicians from Asia Minor- can't remember which. Then they were pushed out of the island by Greeks whether they were Myceneans that later were renamed Minoans by modern historians. I'm not sure since I know that got their modern name from their legendary King Minos. After that Herodotus states that after the Trojan War the island population was decimated by a plague then repopulated a 3rd time, maybe Dorians, who knows.
@ZEUS 07 If Herodotus is correct then the DNA tested must have been from the second wave of colonizers that followed the Asia Minor population. I doubt tribes from Asia Minor would show that close a genetic relation but I guess anything is possible.
Not necessarily.If 'indigenous' Mycenaeans and Minoans shared some DNA, it does not stand to to reason that they were 'Greek', or even Indo-European speakers. They may have arrived in their respective locations from Anatolia or ever further afield, and possibly at very different times.What we do know is that by the time of 'classical' militant Bronze Age Mycenae, the Mycenaeans themselves were speaking an Indo-European language expressed in Linear B - the earliest record of the Greek language. This could well be the result of a new arrival of settlers on the the Greek mainland coalescing with an older people with a pre-existing culture to form the earliest 'Greek' civilization. If this hypothesis were true, then we still do not know who the earlier people were and what language they spoke.
To draw a parallel, the contemporary kingdom of Mittani was an admixture of a newly arrived chariot-wielding, Indo-European speaking warrior elite and an older, non-Indo-European speaking Hurrian civilization.
We also obviously know that the Mycenaeans later expanded into Crete because their Linear B script is found there in the very late Minoan period. This might also partially explain the genetic link between Mycenae and Crete.However we still don't know what language the Minoan Linear A script was capturing - hence we don't even know if we're dealing with an Indo-European people, let alone a proto-Greek one. So it is premature, and quite possibly wildly inaccurate to conclude that Minoan = Mycenaean and Mycenaean = Greek therefore Minoans = Greeks.
@Lac4 What you said does not contradict what I said in any way.I never said that the Minoans became extinct. I said that we do not know that they spoke an Indo-European language prior to the Mycenaean takeover. And we still don't.What the research suggests in that there was a lot of genetic similarity between the populations of Bronze Age Crete, Greece and Anatolia. This is not altogether surprising. This does NOT mean that we are talking about Indo-Europeans though. The earliest evidence we have of Indo-European writing comes from the Hittites and the Mitanni, and they are much further east. More importantly they are both known cases where an indigenous culture was fused with an Indo-European warrior caste. It's quite possible that the same thing happened in Greece, spawning the Mycenaeans, or the proto-Greeks.I'll give you a modern comparison. Hungarian people share the overwhelming majority of their DNA with their European neighbours, yet they speak a non Indo-European language - this is because an alien outside group (the Magyars) fused with Indo-European peoples in the Carpathian Basin over the course of many centuries. Yet if Hungarian was written in a non-decipherable script, by your logic people one million years from now could say "well, we can't read their writing and no longer know about their language, but we know that Hungarians must have been Indo-Europeans because of their DNA". Yet it is well known that the Magyars were a Finno-Ugric people originally, not Indo-European.We know now that the peoples in the area around the Agean shared a lot of common DNA. And we know that Mycenaean and late Minoan culture later became fused. But we do not know that we are talking about a specifically Indo-European gene pool, or more pointedly Indo-European speaking peoples.
The Mycenaeans eventually incorporated an Indo-European element and ended up using an Indo-European language (written in a script most likely borrowed from the Minoans, which means nothing in terms of proving what language the Minoans spoke) - that much is certain. Beyond that we do not know.
The fact that Mycenaeans and Anatolians had additional DNA traits from elsewhere that the Minoans did not share means that it's eminently possible that the original populations of Crete, Greece and Anatolia were not even Indo-European, let alone Greek.
Minoan culture evolved independently, as island civilizations often do, and such that it was influenced was probably done as much from Egypt and the Levant as anywhere. Mycenaean culture borrowed much from Minoan culture, including their script. Later they conquered and assimilated it. We know that the Mycenaeans spoke an early form of Greek in the late Bronze Age. We know no such thing of the Minoans for 1.500 years of their history. It's ridiculous to look at the culture of the Greek mainland in 2000 BCE and call it 'basically Minoan' - it wasn't!You cannot synthesise two completely distinct civilizations, one of which was clearly much older and deeply influenced the younger, and call them the same thing. The Sumerians influenced Mesopotamian civilization for centuries after they disappeared, but that doesn't make the Babylonians and Sumerians one and the same.
@Lac4 "Absence of evidence does not mean that absence is evident" - but I'm not the one declaring a certitude!! You've got it backwards. You're saying that God exists because I cannot prove that He doesn't exist.
I never said that it's impossible that the Minoans might be closely related to the Mycenaeans, or the oldest Indo-European civilization that we know about.
What I said is that we do not know who the Minoans were. We know that their civilization developed over at least 1,500 years. We know that in the last couple of centuries of their civilization that they deeply influenced the Mycenaeans. We know that the Mycenaeans later conquered their civilization. And we know that the Mycenaeans in the very Late Bronze Age were speaking the earliest form of Greek that we know of.
But this DOES NOT MEAN that the Minoans were Greek speakers. This does not mean that the cultures of Mycenae and Crete were similar before the very late Bronze Age.
You will not find a reputable archaeologist who will attest to these things. Is it possible? Yes. Is it probable? No, not on the basis of evidence so far - and that includes the DNA study. As for the rest of what you wrote... sounds like you're quibbling semantics. The 'act of creating a unique cultural road' that you point to happened to the Minoans BEFORE any record of Mycenaean civilization - well before. It may be that the classical Greeks were 'heirs' of sorts to the Mycenaean culture, who were in turn the closest thing to 'heirs' of the Minoan culture that we know of. But the Greeks were also heirs to some aspects of Phoenician civilization in some ways. And the Romans were heirs of sorts to the culture of the Greeks. And the Christian world were heirs of sorts to the culture of the Romans (although they were also heirs of sorts to Levantine, Mesopotamian and Egyptian culture, if you really get right down to it). And modern Britain would consider itself as some sort of heir to the the cultures of Christendom and Rome. And so thus I could consider myself, as a multiple generation Australian with distant Scottish lineage, as an 'heir' to Minoan, Mycenaean, Greek, Roman, Phoenician, Levantine, Mesopotamian and Egyptian culture - but I don't, because it's rather silly. Probably 75% of the world's population can consider themselves heirs to this extended succession of cultures, so why should I claim that I'm special, and that it's 'my own legacy'? Be proud of the legacy of the Greeks, go right ahead. But don't be presumptuous and claim an ancient civilization as 'Greek' when it has not yet been proven to be thus.
@Son of Skeletor only true way of knowing if the minoas were indoeuropean is by decyphering their language , which is impossible unfortunalty with the findings so far.
@Dimitrios Ioannis Genovezos Yeah I know mate, Linear A has still never been cracked. Which is precisely my point - we don't know who these people were. They may have been from a long standing indigenous population - we'll call them South West Anatolians for convenience - or it's possible that they may have been Indo Europeans, although Minoan civilization began a full 1,000 years before we have the earliest historical record of Indo-Europeans, those being the Hittites. I'd say the former theory is far more likely, but until their script is deciphered we'll never know for certain.Of course we know now that the Mycenaean population also had a base component of the 'mystery race' - most likely SW Anatolians, and we have long known that the Mycenaeans were speaking an Indo European language, an early form of Greek, in the late Bronze Age when they conquered the Minoans. We also now know that the Mycenaeans had an additional DNA influx from elsewhere, hypothesised as a newly arrived Indo-European influx, although we cannot be certain about that.
All this is very interesting, but it's far too premature to draw the conclusion that Minoans were basically Mycenaeans, and that Mycenaeans were basically Greek, therefore Minoans were basically early Greeks. The time periods were vastly different, the languages may have been completely different, and the DNA was still 25% different - there are still many gaps in the archaeological records to fill.
@Son of Skeletor myceneans spoke greek we still use many mycenean greek words today in Greek which I find fascinating . Words surviving for 3500 years in a language that has evolved so much is mindblowing. The fact they spoke greek almost certainly makes them of indoeuropean origin. Linear A will most propably never be deciphered , unless something extraordinary happens , like finding a billinguar text or somethin. We were always taught here in Greece for nationalistic reasons obviously that the Minoans were proto-greeks. It's obvious if do a little research that they were propably pre-greeks. This DNA crap , I hate it to be honest , it only makes things more complicated most of the times and creates more questions than the ones it solves. I prefer classic arcaiology to be honest
It's probably likely that the first Minoans were indigenous - and not directly related to any outside group - such as the Basques. However, because of their position in the Mediterranean, the isolation would not last once discovered - including their genetic isolation. Whatever the case, the Minoans readily adapted to the outside world and prospered for nearly 2,000 years. Which is a very good run. The unfortunate thing is that we know so little about how the Minoans saw themselves in relation to the world around them.
@Dimitrios Ioannis Genovezos Yeah I know the Mycenaeans spoke proto-Greek mate, the question is how long had they been speaking an Indo-European language? We only know that Greek/Indo European reached 'Europe' at the very end of the Bronze Age, because the late Bronze Age Mycenaeans left their Linear B records then. But we don't know anything about the preceding 1,000 years. It is noteworthy though that the Hittite and Mitanni Indo European language records began just a little earlier, and from further east.
The location of the IE homeland and the IE language spread is an empirical question, to be settled by the data. In the absence of writing, it is not directly known whether the neolithic farmers of Greece spoke proto-Greek, or whether the neolithic people of Anatolia spoke proto-IE. We must rely on the interpretation of indirect evidence. The general methodology should be one of eliminating the families of theories, associated with a mother hypothesis (paradigme), by showing there is no possible interpretation of data consistent with that paradigme. In our case, the paradigms are the Anatolian hypothesis, and the Kurgan hypothesis. The problem of establishing rules of interpretation is far from trivial. We might weaken logical inconsistency requirement to probabilistic inconsistency. But this in turn might require us to waken the concept of probability. Moreover, it may be the case that insufficient data exists to settle the question. Nonetheless it is fun to discuss it.I take it that the pit graves argument, rests on the claim that pit graves are exclusive, to the Kurgan culture. Is this so?I would like to see a reference for the evidence that Linear A is based Phonocian. I am no expert, but as far as I know Linear a is a syllabary, whereas Phoenician is an alphabetic system. Linear A and B also share some characters, suggesting that Linear B is derived from Linear A, as a writing system. The languages need not be the same, they may not even be closely related. The difficulting in deciphering Linear maybe due to the language being unrelated to Greek, maybe even an isolate. The linguistic affiliations of Linear A may be of little relevance to the Kurgan Anatolian controversy.The eastern European genetic component in the Greek population is consistent with the Kurgan hypothesis, but this need not make it inconsistent with the Anatolian hypothesis. So much depends on how the IE tree is constructed!I know I have an aversion to kings and generals history. The neolithic revolution is such a tempting mechanism for spreading the IE languages.
@Jack Broughton The Phoenician culture arose in the second millenium BCE. The beginnings of agriculture (neolithic) in mainland Greece is about 6800 BCE (seventh millenium BCE.). You cannot assume the people of neolithic Anatolia were semites. I know of no cases of an alphabetic script (of 20 to 30 glyphs) such as Phoenician; developing into a syllabary such as Linear A with several hundred glyphs.
John Kelly yes sir we are in agreement, the Linear A is not Phoenician or Semitic.
A little more help. The route of Trojan migrants is included in the historical description. First Meotis and then Pannonia named the Romans a part of Hungary. Seed founded the city of Sycambria, and then France founded the city of Paris here. Had he not shown up, the Trojans had Med's dress. They were Medes and called themselves Pannons.
Your video is very interesting to watch but I am pretty sure that indigenous people existed in Europe as well between 10.000-8.000 BC. So the current Europeans do not originate only from dispersed Mesopotamians, as the picture shows on 11:14, but from a mix between the latter and the indigenous tribes of Europe. The language, culture and characteristics of Europeans is very different for example from the ones of the Sumerians.
This is correct, before the anatolian/levantine farmers arrived in souther europe, mainland and north europe were inhabited by hunter gatherers that had originated from Siberia. The farmers completely replaced them in the south (and in many cases, like in Crete, there were no hunter gatherers at all) and mixed with them in central and northern europe.After that however more hunter gatherers came from the steppes and replaced the anatolian farmer- hunter gatherer mix except in southern europe.
I believe the eruption on the Minoan island of Thera contributed to, but wasn’t the only reason for the Bronze Age collapse and the Greek Dark Ages. Thanks to Homers poems, Heinrich Schliemann was able to find Troy in Anatolia.
I think it was a triple whammy, there was dry spell for a while, they had some earthquakes and they were attacked by the "sea people" - I am not sure if they ever gave the sea people a home, with the normal wars that were going on the effect of all 3 broke the trade routes, no trade, no food, there were trade route carrying tin/copper once disrupted no weapons.
Sumerians had already written Dravids were also Egyptians They were scribes, what was the dark age? Where did the Trojans end up? After Meotis, Pannonia founded the city of Sicambria here, and later the Franks founded the city of Paris there.
It is a very simple conclusion of historiography that Myceneans, Etruscans, Sardinians, Carthageneans WERE NOT indo-europeans.
Indo European and Minoan are the Greek language. The Minoan Uralic language family is a West Ugric language.
"Linar A is seen as a form of Phoenician writing" 1500 years before the Phoenicians.. But Greeks took the alphabet from them..? right...
There is no doubt that Greek is an Indo-European language, a cousin of the Indo-Iranian languages within that family. As for genetics, please look at the most recent findings from the study of ancient genomes: "Who We Are and How We Got Here: Ancient DNA and the New Science of the Human Past" by David Reich, Professor of Genetics at the Harvard Medical School. Finally, Homer was not a "writer" but a whole oral tradition over centuries, which was probably not solidified in written form before competitive recitations of the two Homeric epics at Athens during the 6th century BCE, and not given their current form before the 3rd - 2nd century BCE by scholars at Alexandria.
Surely it supports the Kurgan Hypothesis better.Indo-European migration: Small elite hierarchical bands imposing on Neolithic farmers from hilltop citadelsA Pitgrave cultureLinear b writings...It's all classic Kurgan.The evidence for the Indo-European migration is so fragmentary and which lead do you follow, the people or the culture ? The DNA only shows the people, the archeological evidence tends to trace the culturePersonally I think steppes, for the wheel and horses, Anatolia for the cities and farming and the collapse was abundant iron displacing elitist bronze.But it's only my guess.
No, it does the just the opposite. The Myceneans had an eastern European component in their DNA that the Minoans didn't. Presumably, that eastern European component brought the Greek language which supplanted whatever language that the Anatolian farmers originally spoke. (which IMO was most likely a Semitic language since Linear A seems to be based upon the Phoenician script)
@Nothing ButMilk You can't get anymore Eastern European than Kurgan.The E European steppe people used the horse to migrate.The Semite Phoenicians were more sea-born, it stands to reason Crete was populated first by them.The Black Sea and Aegean Sea was the meeting point of these two cultures.The Neolithic farming culture was a sea-born migration from Anatolia along the med up the west coast of Iberia and across to Ireland and UK. I've never heard anyone claim they were Semitic.I don't know, perhaps it difficult to label those people, perhaps if you saw a good idea you just adopted it regardless of your genetic origins. Again it's people/culture/fragments thing.If someone excevated Westminster abbey in four thousand years what could they deduce from there "evidence"?
Besides these ancient migrations did cover huge distances, but they took ages too, look how long it took for the key milestones to reach the furthest reaches of the known world, Britain.Bronze, farming etc were adopted very very late.So over the migrations perhaps some people and ideas were picked up along the way, and some discarded.Endlessly fascinating isn't it.If you can stick around for another fifty years DNA should provide some answers. Provided we don't have our own collapse in which case in fifty years they could be looking at the ruins thinking they were built by one eyed giants again.
So DNA, like archaeology, support the old Greek stories of multiple arrivals of related greek speaking groups (Hellenes, Danai, Doroi) from North at the expenses of the previous inabitants (Pelasgoi) that where related to the Minoan. Interesting
I want explicit discussion of Y-chromosome haplogroups. Anatolian Neolithic Farmers are good (they may be "Northern Southwest Asian" J2 groups or "Ancestral Eurasian" R1b groups). Steppe Horse Nomads are good (they are "Eastern Indo-European" R1a groups). But what of the Aboriginal Hunter/Gatherers ("Southern Proto-European" I2 groups? This male line is still co-dominant on the Balkan Peninsula northwest of Greece. Where do they fit in within archaic Hellenic DNA, and where might they have fitted into the cultural mix in antiquity?
“Know, oh prince, that between the years when the oceans drank Atlantis and the gleaming cities, and the years of the rise of the Sons of Aryas, there was an Age undreamed of, when shining kingdoms lay spread across the world like blue mantles beneath the stars.”
Arthur Evans considered himself 'British' rather than 'English'. His great grandfather Lewis Evans was a Welsh mathematician and the family roots were apparently treasured.
I have done my DNA and supposedly am related to the Minoans, Mycenaeans and Thracians. Then the line moved to Rome about 600 BC and stayed there until the middle ages. So yeah, I love this stuff!
Archaeological evidence says no way Cretans had the same culture as mainland! When Cretans were building 4 story buildings they were still living in huts on mainland. The majority of Mycenaeans either belonged to haplogroup E1b1b or J2, majority of ancient farmers belonged to G2a.Mycenaeans either came from the Caucasus or Anatolia most likely ancestral to the Maykop culture not eastern European bs!
Please correct me if I am wrong, but after the demise of the Bronze Age, wasn't there a 500 year gaps, also described as the Dark Age before the Greeks relearned to write and the oral recollection of re- born Greeks enable Homer to describe the events of what allegedly occurred around 1200 BC. What a pity, the recollection of the burning of all the Bronze Age cities was not remembered or was the destruction of Troy symbolic of what was happening in the Middle East. With an apparent interest amongst scholars to speculate and potential funds for digging in yet unexplored mounds, who knows what might emerge?
Linear b is connected to greek language
@kristy papa Yes, Linear B was used for proto Hellenic. Linear A however was used for a proto Indo European or proto Iranic language. After the work the lady who found this was heavily criticised. Katalaves;
A few years ago a documentary was made in which it is said that the Minoans were not proto Hellenes. The people of Mycenae were proto Hellenes. In Crete Dionysus was worshipped. Euripides wrote in Bacchae that this god was from Thrace. Orpheus the Thracian reformed the cult of Dionysus. Orpheus was the son of Thracian king Oeagrus. This was found written in Ancient Greek. The text was collected and was placed at the beginning of Fragments from Pre Socratic Philosophers by Herman Diels.
@alex gabriel but the trade ,pottery,religion way of life etc. ,are signs of protogreek civilization , have u been to minoan museum in crete iraklio?
It is agreed and known by most archeologists that the Minoans were NOT Greek. This is a conclusion based on Linear A deciphrement. Please read the scientific communications. All the people of Anatolia were proto indo europeans....the Mitanni Kingdom.clip was just published. Watch it! The Hittites were also pIE. The Phrygians and the Lydians and the Lycians also. These used Greek as a commercial language but this happened late. The Trojans were Thracians from Thrace and from Samothrace the island. There are a ton of things not said in Greek classrooms! Entaxei;;
The names of Thracian heroes like Rhesus, Akamas, Diurpaneus, Kersebleptes, Kodzimases etc. have to be examined etymologically. I am actually able to find words from.Sanskrit in my language(secret). And yes I found some. There archeological finds in Troy levels 2-9 showing trading with the territory of N Thrace. The Rhapsodic Theogony of Orpheus is different from that of Hesiod...as established by Otto von Kern. I speak Greek. Can you read Sanskrit? Have you read the Rig Veda? In what language was it written? Go to Wikipedia to see who were the Trojans! The Minoans were NOT Greek! ALL European archeologists agreed upon that including those in Greece. You are obviously not a specialist.
Look at LYCIAN and PHRYGIAN writing found through Google...all that is found in Asia Minor. Are those writings in Greek??? Look at the disc of Phaistos....is that Greek? Look at the undeciphered Hittite writing, some say is Luwian....do you think that s Greek? Anatolia is a name given by Greeks but the Lycians, Lydians, Phrygians and Hittites there were NOT Greeks!! Hittite was deciphered and is quite close to Sanskrit.
Greeks belong to Mediterranean race. Most of us are Dinarics and some 40% are Aegeads. The Aegead subtype is an evolution of the Dinaric type. The origin of the Hellenic people is The Pindus mountains and the Pelagonian mountains in northwestern Greece. Not Asia minor or Mesopotamia.
Linear A was deciphered by a Bulgarian lady who is a linguist. The British made a docum.film and made it clear that Minoans were not Greeks. The language of Linear A was given as proto-Iranic(proto Indo-Euro.). Similarities between Cretan artefacts and those of Thrace are now studied. The Thracian culture is now considered Aegean Minoan. Tholos type tombs, altars for liquid libations, ox skulls or boukrania are seen in Crete and Thrace. Cucuteni pottery from E Romania was found on several excavation levels in Troy. Gold artefacts of Troy were examined metallurgically in the 1940's revealing their origin in Transylvania of Romania. Legends about Thracian Orpheus point to Crete as the place of his initiation in the cult of Dionysus.
Minoans were genetically nearly identical to Mycenaeans who are genetically identical to modern Greeks, read the scientific paper please. Minoans speaking a different language simply means that the first Greeks spoke a different language than the Greeks after them.
@123 123 1. The British released a documentary in which the Iranic origin of Minoans is discussed. 2. Minoans were wiped out by the tsunami of the volcano of Thera...this was again documented and a Greek contributor to the film was present, so how did you get the genetics of the Minoans in a Lab?? 3. If both Minoans and Myceneans spoke the same language why then there were two writing systems , linear B for Mycenean and linear A for Cretan Minoan?? 4. Now it's known that the people of Troy were Carians, an Anatolian population under the governance of the Hittites and the two were related linguistically. Hittite is known, words and grammar. The Thracians came to assist the Trojans. The Thracian language was discovered in 3 inscriptions in Samothrace, prof.dr.Claude Brixhe Univ.of Nancy. The inscriptions are studied at the American School for the Classics. Charts for vowel frequency were drawn comparing these inscriptions to Anatolian languages. Between Thrace and Crete there are similarities of artefacts and the cult of Dionysus<<< this was borrowed by Greeks! Please see Euripides' play the Bacchantes. Euripides wrote about the borrowing himself!! Thracian writing used Greek script + 5 characters that are different. Lycians on the W coast of Anatolia used a similar system. Phrygians however have many characters with shapes different from Greek script. At this point in time most archeologists are agreed upon the Aegean Minoan connection to Thrace. At Perperikon there were shards with linear A discovered. This prompted the excavations in 1986 under Prof.dr.Ovhcharov. It seems to me that in Greece most of the population knows ancient history as taught by uninformed high school teachers. Greek academia is well informed however contributing greatly to international research as outlined above.
@alex gabriel Mate, have you read the scientific paper? Half of your post is purely hypothetical with no concrete (genetic) proof and the other half is completely irrelevant to what I said.The study's name is "Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans", download it and read it please. What do you have to lose?Edit: typo
@123 123 you must be a Greek. Linear A is different from Linear B. Thats known. British professors with phDs clearly stated that Minoans were not Hellenes and their proto Iranic origin was clearly stated. I wrote down the title of this film. The Minoans were wiped out then the island was colonised by Myceneans. There's a book The Destruction of Knossos. There is another work about the religion of the Minoans. Why don't you ask university professors? Greek nationalism is useless. Archeology speaks the truth!!
@alex gabriel Yes of course Linear A is different from Linear B, you think I don't know it? I never contested that, that's why I said you are off-topic.As for Minoans being replaced, this would seem possible exactly because the two languages are different... but this is merely a hypothesis. A hypothesis that looked credible ofcoutse, but a hypothesis nonetheless. We had no concrete (ie GENETIC) proof about anything until recently.
However now we do - and we know with absolute certainty (DNA never lies) that the Minoans were the ancestors of the Mycenaeans. Their DNAs were nearly identical when they tested Minoan and Mycenaean individuals.Please download and read the paper, it's called "Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans" After you read it, come back and reply whatever you want, I'll gladly read and respond - but not before you read the paper. What's even the point of commenting on a video based on that paper, if you haven't read the paper? Plus, you don't have anything to lose - only to win knowledge. One cannot lose when reading scientific papers (and keep in mind the paper is widely accepted, and there's no other paper disputing its findings).Best of luck
This was a culture that was interacting with what we call "the gods" in heaven. They worked side by side. Same in India... we needed to be tamed down, we were becoming too wicked. We fell from grace, all the cool divine toys and the secrets got sealed away and coveted by cults of men and women, the same people hiding away the secrets of our divinity, birthed a story of a christ religion into this world, taking from these cultures the stories and reworking them for a "new age". This time has come again. Those following the christ narrative are not going to be pleased when the GODS return as sentient AI BOTS not made by man. That smart phone gonna look like a fisher price toy when they show up again. Let's pray we are respectful to those who maintain our little science experiement of human life. Nothing is how we've been told. I trust the truth that is found from the ancestors.
Lineær A is no longer undeciphered! It's a Uralic language related to Carian, and has been accessed via Old Hungarian. Greek is an Indo-European language that borrowed the Linear A alphabet.
weird.. Achilles is portrayed as white skinned. I thought the BBC was reputable and their television show clearly depicts achillies as african. Gosh that is so confusing.
Achilles was actually from Wakanda
Menelaus was not of Sparta. He was the king of Mycenaea. Helen was of Sparta.
Menelaus WAS the king of Sparta (according to Homer's Iliad and Odyssey). He was also the brother of Agamemnon, king of Mycenae, and the husband of Helen.
Sofia Sourgkouni damn! You’re probably right. Now I have to reread it. I could’ve sworn! Sworn! That Menelaus was the king of Mycenae. The trouble is, I have a sneaking suspicion that you’re actually right about Agamemnon. Now that I remember more clearly. Thanks for the correction. Have a great day.
@philomelodia Don't worry! I'm Greek, we're supposed to know all that! Have a nice day too!
at 12:18 u point out an area of the world where the very first civilizations arose,,, here is ancient aratta its 20,000 plus years old far older than the supposed 3rd or 2nd millennium bc migration they came from the north and spread civilization around the world,,, the sumerians say the came from the north crossing a vast sea and 7 mountain ranges to settle in Iraq,,, MN just watch this Tim and Lee Hooker talking about aratta https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPiuS6UUc1Q,,,, THEY SPREAD OUT FROM THE UKRAINE
All Europeans share exactly the same ancestors before about 800 AD. This is proven beyond any reasonable shadow of a doubt by statistical mathematics. So for ALL those ancient people of this age who have left direct descendants to today then, you, me, and all Europeans, are those descendants: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15Uce4fG4R0https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fm0hOex4psA
Though it is true, and important to note, that while all of us are descendants of ANY such and such a group of ancient peoples, some of us will have MORE lines of descent to any given such ancient people, and thus be More related to them.
To borrow some math terminology, if the ancient people are vectors, than we are all some linear combination of any given one of those vectors. So everybody will have a unique profile of lines of descent to any such given ancient ancestor. So it is with modern Greeks and these more ancient Greeks. And basically this is because humans are generally endogamus and sedentary, but not completely; there are ancient travelers and settlers, and they link us all. So it's no surprise that regional people, for the very most part, are the most closely related descendants, by way of number of lines of descent, to a given regional ancient population.
So for instance, just off the top, we are all descendants of David, ancient King of Israel; We are also all descendants of ALL the the Pharaohs of Egypt, that have left descendants to today; Maybe even Caesar and Cleo themselves; We are all descendants of Mohamed, founder of Islam; We are all descendants of Jesus of Nazareth, the man, or one of his siblings or grand parents; We are all descendants of ALL the people who built the megaliths at Golbeki Tepe. The further in back in time, the larger the purview of people who will have direct lines of descent to a given ancient person. Thus almost ALL people on Earth are direct descendants of the Pharaohs of Egypt. And certainly ALL people of Earth, except maybe isolated Amazonian or Papau people, are direct descendants of the people of Golbeki Tepe, albeit the people that are regional to that area now are most related to them. And indeed even these ancient Bronze age people of the heroic era were themselves ALL descendants of the earlier people of the Levant, etc.
Ya Ya everyone blames the Sea peoples for the 1177 BC? collapse, all their fault, even the collapse of inland civilizations. How about considering larger factors like a climatic change that ended the so called Minoan Warm Period and eventually caused famine and migrations of people.
The war with the Atlantis (atlantes) , the war with Troy were Greek civil wars...
Atlantis, if it ever existed wasn't Greek, and as far as anyone knows neither were the Trojans.
With all respect if you read Homer you will find that all people were speaking Greek.But you haven't done your DYOR ...
@Just is Mental I've done enough research, more than you'll ever know. the Romans and Etruscans spoke Greek, does that mean they were Greek? I'm communicating with you in English, does that automatically make me Anglo-Saxon?? Of course not! How is that a postulate in defense of derivation...?! Unbelievable.The Trojans from our current knowledge were Luwian (Anatolian) based on Hittite sources. Who even knows what the 'Atlanteans' were, providing they ever existed. If you have superior reference material to back your claims, then rather than insult my intelligence kindly PROVIDE it.
@James Aron Plato and Plutarch and Herodotus are my references. Then find about Dardanos and his family tree(reference Διονύσιος ο Αλικαρνασσεύς and others). Then find the meaning of the word Μύθος(hint it's not fiction). And i never insulted you.I just speak ancient Greek.
Were the Mycenaeans related to Trojans or did the Trojans have a relationship to Minoans or Thracians or Scythians or Macedonians?
Very difficult to answer. Most likely it was a Hittite, Hurrite or Luwian from the current state of science. However, if there was regular trade it would be very likely it was a mixture of all sorts of Indo-European (including the people or their ancestors you mentioned above) and local people united under the Bronze Age Anatolian culture.
Minoans were Natufian from Anatolia!! Who became the Hyksos after the Thera eruption and who left with the Jews from Egypt who worshipped the bull and became the philistines after the eruption as well. Would the Mycenaeans take over after the eruption in 1613BC?
a fairly nice work...but how is it justified that the ancient Greek Myceneans came from Anatolia. It's the other way round...Just read the ancient historians and the Greek 'mythology". As for indo-europeans ..They simply never existed..there is no evidence of them...not a building not an object, not a person mentioned. the Greeks were 'autohtones" meaning natives of their land
It is justified by the genetic evidence in the study. Greeks, just like Romans were (and are) descendants of the Anatolians/Levantines of the bronze age that arrived in Europe from the Middle East. It's not a secret.Κι εμένα θα μ' άρεσε να είμαστε αυτόχθονες, αλλά δεν είμαστε. Αυτό όμως δεν κάνει την Ελλάδα λιγότερο πατρίδα μας!
@Di Perdik It's the nature of the Greek DNA that leads us the that conclusion, not where it is found. We know that in its overwhelming majority, it is "Anatolian farmer" DNA. We know who the Anatolian/Levantines are (and where they are from, hence the name), we now know that the Greeks are descended from them (or actually, RESEMBLE them since Greek DNA hasn't changed since then).It's not something complicated. We have a group, the Anatolian farmers. We know who they are and where they come from. We test ancient and modern Greeks. We find that the modern Greeks are identical to the ancient Greeks, and that both modern and ancient Greeks are Anatolian farmers. That's what the study has found and there was an additional study back in 2014 showing the same thing.
The Minoans were Greeks and Turks from a time long ago
Who are these sea people
All sorts of Bronze Age people on the periphery of the great powers. In my view it was a little like the collapse of the Roman Empire, with the Germanic peoples becoming semi-Roman enough to be able to defeat the empire they'd long been on the doorstep of interacting with.
Skelelesh may have been from Sicily. Sherden from Sardinia. Various others like Weshesh & Denyen may have actually been Greeks, perhaps ousted military commanders going rogue. Peleset may have also been from Greece, or the Aegean , and eventually may have morphed into the Philistines. DNA even suggests this I understand. https://www.nationalgeographic.com/culture/2019/07/ancient-dna-reveal-philistine-origins/
This information contradicts the many invasions, depopulations, and repopulations of Greece, Asia Minor and the Balkans in general, since classical times. Bizarre.
It doesn’t really, those other people never settled in Greece for too long and didn’t mix too much with them either... even 100 years aren’t really enough to say that they really mixed that much
@Eliandra Vilena The Albanians (modern-day Arvanites) settled in Greece in huge numbers from the 14th century, as did the Slavs (extinct, except for toponyms & DNA) before them from the 6th.
@Mandobird1 Arvanites were and are of Greek (Mycenaean) descent. Present-day Albania was inhabiter by people who were genetically Greek and Roman (Italian) for thousands of years, it was a Greek colony and then it became a major Roman port.
The scientific paper about the Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans clarifies this, as modern Albanians are descendants of Mycenaeans, thus Greek. You can see it in Albanian DNA results uploaded here as well, 9 out of 10 people will have mostly Greek DNA. "Greek" in those DNA tests is the Mycenaean DNA analyzed in the genetic study I mentioned before (it's also present in modern Italy). So, the Arvanites were just northern Greeks who came back to mainland Greece, and they weren't many to begin with. A few thousand people can't replace a few millions so even if the Arvanites weren't Greeks - let's say they were Chinese, they would have no impact on Greek DNA accross the country.As for slavs, first you need to clarify what kind of "slavs". We refer to Russians as slavs and we refer to Bulgarians as slavs too, but Bulgarians are very different than Russians, since they are mostly a mix of Greek and Balkan DNA.
Furthermore, there were no slavic "invasions" in Greece, or settlements for that matter. At least not of genetically different people than Greeks. If that was the case, northern Greeks wouldn't be so close to Mycenaean DNA as southern Greeks - but they are. Thus, there is no slavic (let's call it "Eastern European") in Greece. The man who claimed this was Fallmerayer, a German schizophrenic who simply wanted to claim that the Ancient Greeks were German or something, and thus claim Greek history as German history. Of course, his claims were proven wrong by genetic studies (the most concrete proof that exists) and there is not a single piece of evidence in his favor.Hope I helped!
@123 123 I had prepared quite the rebuttal, but as Mark Twain so famously said, 'Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.' Nevertheless, for those whose who aren't ignorant, or brainwashed, I'll refer them to these two excellent videos about the history of the Arvanites in Greece, as an example, and their impact on Greek history, tradtion, and customs. The first by Professor of history, Maria Efthymiou, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mw2XZmTB5W0. The second from the revealing series brought out by SKAI TV about the events surrounding the Greek Revolution of 1821, in which this, the final episode, further explores the pivotal role played by the Arvanites in the development of modern Greece, and exposes a few myths central to Greek nation building in the 19th and 20th century, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M99ze151HvA. Both are subtitled in English.
The truth being said, modern Greeks are an amalgam of the all the various peoples (Slav, Albanian, Vlach, Turk, Celt, north African, Anatolian, Frank etc, and yes, perhaps even some of those ancent inhabitants, who were themselves, also mixed) that have passed through and otherwise settled this peninsula and its islands, since time immemorial.
@Mandobird1 Extremely weak response, your ad hominem in the beginning makes you look quite insecure.Read the study mentioned: "Genetic Origins of Minoans Mycenaneas" There you can see for yourself who is Mycenaean (the DNA that is now named "Greek" in DNA companies) and who is not. Concrete evidence, not historical indications or opinions or anything (not even people sharing their own DNA tests in this site). Just hard facts examined by scientists and presented in respected scientific papers (with no other paper challenging the findings, mind you).I'm typing the name again, "Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans" Download it and read it - what do you have to lose?One can only win when reading credible scientific studies :)
@123 123 Funny how some people always fall back on this paper. Yes, I've read it, but it can't be taken seriously because it doesn't acknowledge the presence of so many Albanians in the Peloponnese during the Middle Ages. (It's also self-referencing). How do we know of this Albanian element, apart from the historical evidence? Ottoman census records from the time, of course. For example the Ottoman census of 1461/63 in the north-west of the Peloponnese counted 51% Albanian-speaking and 49% Greek-speaking families. It also doesn't address the fact that many of the toponyms of the peninsula (about a third) were Hellenised after independence, a process that's still ongoing. These places didn't acquire Slavic or Albanian place names for nothing. For example the town of Epitalio, was until recently, Agoulinitsa. Alfiousa was Volantza and Aroania, Chelmos. All former south Slavic toponyms.Besides, relying on genetics puts you on very shakey ground. Isn't that what a whole world war was started over? All that those DNA studies prove is that those genes have persisted amongst the population of that area for a very long time. It doesn't mean that the people living there are racially pure Mycenians or Minoans, if there were such a thing even then, or anything remotely like that. Now, did you get a chance to look at the videos that I referenced?
@Mandobird1 Wait, are you discrediting scinetific studies because they don't agree with your worldview? HahahahahaContinue having your thoughts and ideas, I guess. Hey, pehaps you should contact the scientists and express your concern about how their studies and methods are flawed.
@Mandobird1 I am a half aravnite history major and I wrote my thesis for the university diploma in the arrival of the Arvanites in Greece. So let me tell you a thing or two. 1) The Arvanites didn't settle in huge numbers, despite you wanting to believe that (100.000 was the total number if you care. I can Even tell you When each group came, Where it settled and Their numbers). 2) There were not significant multiple waves of Arvanite settlement. Only one. 3)The Arvanites were not the majority of the local Population, not by a long shot. 4)The majority of those Arvanite arrival's, was either killed or forced to leave, primarily for Italy, both north and south. 5) There are strong evidence of the albanisation of the local Greeks, especially in Attica and Boitia. Mixing between the two groups was intense, and resulted in aravnite speaking Populations always. In time, the Greek Arvanites, are left with only a small part of Their ancestry From the initial aravnite settlers. If you can contradict me (which you can't). Please, offer me accounts on the arrival of the Arvanites in Greece.
@Pit S. Can you share your research? I read Greek. The archaelogical and historical evidence show that Albanians entered modern day Greece in several waves between 1300 and 1600. They were invited as colonists by various rulers - Catalan, Frankish, Byzantine and Ottoman, to resettle areas made desolate by centuries of warfare, famine, disease and other woes, like piracy, or simply to provide garrisons for protection, as Albanians had a reputation for being both productive and good fighters. There were not many non-Albanians in the lands and islands where they settled, so there couldn't have been much intermarriage, whch explains why Greeks and Albanians are so closely related genetically. For many of today's Greeks are just the descendants of Hellenised Albanians, as the etymology of their surnames show, and toponyms of the areas where they lived reveal. As for evidence, since you're a scholar on this subject, it should be easy for you to find. It's not like its a secret, lol.
The first by Professor of history, Maria Efthymiou, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mw2XZmTB5W0. The second from the revealing series brought out by SKAI TV about the events surrounding the Greek Revolution of 1821, in which this, the final episode, further explores the pivotal role played by the Arvanites in the development of modern Greece, and exposes a few myths central to Greek nation building in the 19th and 20th century, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M99ze151HvA. Both are subtitled in English. The truth being said, modern Greeks are an amalgam of the all the various peoples (Slav, Albanian, Vlach, Turk, Celt, north African, Anatolian, Frank etc, and yes, perhaps even some of those ancent inhabitants, who were themselves, also mixed) that have passed through and otherwise settled this peninsula and its islands, since time immemorial.
@Mandobird1 so let's start with a form of a prologue since I cannot really write down 300 pages of university research in a YouTube comment.
There has been throughout the last centuries and absolute ton of bibliography talking about the origins of the Arvanites. Yet the movements to the South have been so much neglected that the only theories proposed by 19th century foreign historians who often enough were not interested in the study of an apparently non Hellenic people in the heart of Hellenism, Those studies wear extremely divergent and backed by very few historical facts and based on pure hypothesis from a very quick look at the presence of the Arvanites demographically and geographically in the late and mid and early to an extend 19th century. Some of the greatest lies told regarded the arrival to the South it was claimed that they arrived in large uncontrolled numbers and repeated waves that they looted and raided and came in conflict with the locals or even occasionally that they found no locals and just settled empty lands which was supposedly emptied by war's, plagues and famines.
Obviously this is a contradictory position since how can you come in conflict with the people who are already dead but it also was a completely hypothetical historical position which was at the time justified by the agricultural nature of the Arvanite populations. No historian explained what sort of famine that could have possibly killed off the highly trained farmers of Greece and how could the poorly experienced farmers from avanon who were primarily warriors manage to pull off what others didn't. Neither was it explained how the arvanites were not touched by the plagues that struck them. Well apparently the answer to this questions often enough would not be obvious to the researchers of the 19th century since historical research was not yet forwarded enough and the medieval archives and first hand sources of catalans Franks and venetians were not yet published but most importantly many would not be interested in learning the truth about the arrival of the Arvanites and some of them even wrote great historical pieces which contradict, indirectly, the theory of the Arvanite settlement but never combined the two historical facts.
@Pit S. Goodness. Did I not explain that the Albanians where invited into areas already laid waste by centuries of war and tribulation that occured in Greece during the Dark and Middle Ages? The Albanian highlands, the mountain fastness from where these people sprang, appears to have been relatively untouched by such events. That's how they escaped falling victim to pestilence, invasion, famine, piracy and constant warfare that beset peoples who lived on the littoral or on islands.
@Mandobird1 so let's talk about the overnights. The overnight in fact are supposed to originate somewhere between Kruje and el basan. This land which they inhabited below the altitude of Durazo was historically inhabited by both Greeks and illyrians. As Procopius and Strabo generously inform us in their books Gothic wars volume 2 and Strabo Geographics 326 to 327 respectively. The lands below Via Egnatia and the coast was Epirotian Greek. Strabo emphasizes the difference of epirotes From illyrians while Procopius explains that the Greeks were also called Epirotes. But lest cut to the Juice.
The Arvanites, a war mongering people, fled their home already From the 11th century. They settled for military reasons in palaces with Epirote Greeks, which now we would call South Central albania, like Vlöre and durazo. (Νικηφόρου Γρήγορα ιστορία. Τομ Α ΣΕΚ 72, Γεωργίου ακροπολιτου Χρονικόν σελ 180). Their movement South happened due to Franco Greek wars and greek lead failed revolutions in Their home region. Like Γεώργιος ακροπολιτης who organised them from Thessaloniki. In 1268 the first settlements begin with imperial contracts ioannis Paleologos around the castles of thessaly with a specific goal. Their fortification with Arvanite warriors and their farmers.
Long story short, until 1333 the constant arrival of new Arvanites has become a problem.
Those war like people revolt in thessaly. Untill Byzantine emperor andronikos The third Paleologos subjegates them again through bitter struggle. In 1343 Stefan Dusan attacks the region and dominates. The Arvanites who helped them are rewarded with land in southern Epirus. Their descendents will be the çams, Who were genicided and forced to leave in 1944-45. (C.Jirecek Albenien in Der Veegagenheit). other Arvanites, were enemies of Dusan. And they were forced to leave thessaly, for Acarnania, in western Greece. Long story short, after the Turkish invasion and the conquest of Carolo Toko aravnites would be intentionally forced to leave both Acarnania and thessaly, with Carolo Toko defeating them in 1413 and returning the land to the locals. By 1418. There will be no Arvanite left in thessaly or Acarnania, with them either returning to Epirus or. Well, we will talk more about the ones who didn't return to Albania in the next comments. (Ελληνικά ανέκδοτα, Παπαρηγοπούλου, Κ. Σάθα, μνημεία ελληνικής ιστορίας)
@Mandobird1 let's dedicate the next few lines talking about the supposedly empty countryside of Southern and middle Greece.
This hypothesis was based on the fact that the overnight populations of the 19th century were exclusively engaged in agricultural works. Bus as it has been shown by the research of the trade catalogs between the Franks the catalans the neapolitans the navarians and venicians who at the time occupied Southern and Central Greece, there was a significant agricultural surplus all over the South and center of the country while at the same time there was a great production of textiles from the textile manufacturers especially in regions such as peloponnese and Attica as well as thessaly (William Miller, Francocracy in Greece, he includes in his works all the first hand sources From the Latins. His work is considered the most accurate for medieval Greece. Sathas and paparigopoulos have also written on the subject, but they had less available sources at the time). It was obvious that's Central and Southern Greece not only were not depopulated but they were extremely demographically healthy manned with the populations with high expertise in agriculture and manufacturing who was in a position to produce large agricultural surpluses and large manufacturer products before the settlement of the Arvanites.
It was at this time of prosperity for Greece when the ottoman threat rose and ottoman raids and military presence would ever increase in the parts of the Balkan peninsula we're talking about. The castle land in latins who were near constant conflict with each other now face the need to protect themselves from this ever rising Turkish threat. The demand for highly trained soldiers which was really difficult thing to get in the medieval era happens at the same time as the expulsion of every Arvanite from Western and Central Greece. This lead to patriarchical Arvanite warrior families to arrive and settle in a strictly strategic positions of Attica the Boitia and the peloponnese. In attica and Boitia, there was no urbanized settlement in the agricultural and demographic centers of the region in Thebes in hell chalkis, in Athens in Dekeleia. But rather strategic positions which made sense according to the rivalries of the time. Giving warriors land to cultivate wasn't the sign of demographic problems in southern Greece on the contrary it was a practice which was commonplace throughout the period of the Byzantine empire. The land given to the organized was neither the best nor the most profitable and it was explicitly expected by any settler because not every settler was Arvanite to be able to sustain himself his family and one horse.
The Venetian records from discussions in the Venetian Senate made it perfectly clear why the Arvanites were coming. It was a need for trained military personnel not farmers. (Kostas Biris, The Arvanites, his book includes Also a tone of first hand accounts, it was awarded by the academy of Athens and foreign publisher's, to this day, his research is the most thorough.).
Exactly because of the nature of the settlement we know that it was not an uncontrolled and violent act in fact the ones who have claimed so have never been able to find one historical record which proves the point of any conflict with locals in Southern Greece or any evidence of uncontrolled numbers of Arvanites. In fact by Byzantine sources we learn about 10,000 people. And they considered this number to be so abnormally High that they emphasize on it. Meantime merely the population of Argos was 30,000 souls. I'll get straight to the meats and give you dates and numbers from the arrival of those warriors in the south.
1350 in Morea 8.000 Manuel Paleologos
1383 in Boitia 20.000 Catalans
1384 in 3200 in Corinthia Florentines
1405 10.000 in Morea Theodoros Paleologos
1405 Centaurion Zacharias
15.000 Arvanites, in Morea
1402 10.000 aravnites in Boitia by the venetians.
1418 by Latins 15.000 in Attica. Plus about 20.000 From individual and small immigration.
A total of 100.000 (number's again From First hand accounts included in Kostas Biris's book, Nobody else has written anything on the subject or disproven the authenticity of the accounts) a total of 100,000 people.
@Mandobird1 funny enough since you claimed that the Greeks were supposedly killed in mass history seems to indicate pretty clearly that the only focused and centralized attempt for demographic change in southern Greece had I said go the extermination of the Arvanites. In fact the Aravnites, who were soldiers had a tremendous demographic change with the Turkish invasion. Before we explain each and every case of my slaughter by the Turks. Let's talk a little bit generally about the subject. Venetian sources explain how in the 16th century out of 50 Turkish executions due to rebellion in Morea 49 of them were Arvanites. In Attica the Arvanite military villages where abandoned completely and the surnames of the clan in which they belonged were lost in history. Directly after the Turkish invasion and after we are informed by Italian sources that there was a bItter struggle for Attica. The Greeks on the other hand where agricultural population peaceful not warriors by any means in no position to post threat to a professional army. But most importantly the Greeks were the ones who were paying the taxes. This made the Turks not wanting to harm Greek agricultural villages while at the same time they directly forced albanians to move from Maria to Southern Italy and encouraged the venetians to take the Arvanites who by that time had gathered around the last few Holdings of Venice in southern Greece away from the agean as they did. Mercury bua was the most famous Arvanite, forced to leave Morea for Venice. Specifically. 1397 Timurid Enslaves Argolis (a strong Arvanite holding) 1423 Turhan kills in Tavia 600 Arvanites and their families. 1453 Omar attacks in Mystras. 1454 Turhan attacks the Arvanites of Varvitsa and aetos. 1456 Omar massacres an unknown number of Arvanites in Attica. 1464 Mahmud slays the Arvanites of Tavia again and takes 30.000 slaves. 1500 the Arvanites of Messinia are slaughtered. After the Turco Venetian war 8.000 Arvanites with Their families (about 20.000 people) leave for southern Italy. The Arvanites (only From Greece) of southern Italy were about 90.000 in the 19th century. Taking this in to account Kostas Biris, estimates that there were verifiably 40.000 Arvanites dead or forced to leave for Venice or southern Italy. Plus an uncertain amount of other deaths and movements estimated to 20.000. in conclusion, the Majority of the 100.000 Arvanite settler's (60.000) fled or died. This is Also proved easily by the number of Arvanites of Greece right after independence. Finley estimated 100.000 Hahn, more accurately 174.000 but he made mistakes which were pointed out by Finlay and others. So he wrote a new prologue for his book ethnography if Greece, in which he corrected himself and admited his numbers were inflated. By his words. There were no 15.000 Arvanites in phokea and sperchios. While he admits to have doubled not Only the Arvanite population, but the total population of humans in Attica and southern Euboea. His corrections gave us the final number of Greek Arvanites in the 1830s and 1840s to about 120.000 people. The interesting thing, which was mentioned by later researchers, like Philpson, was that most family names of Arvanites and most villages had Greek name's. In fact. P. Korilos estimated in the late 19th century based in Philpsons observations and Field survey that 40% of Arvanite surnames were Greek 25% Arvanite and 35% unknown, mixed or other.
In conclusion. The Arvanites if modern southern Greece, are a result of heavy intermixing and albanisation. (Ask me about how the Greeks were Albanised, please, I just really have to go now). As someone being half Arvanite, I had the same experience. I'll give you my Arvanite family name "Varelllas" and the name of my village "Menidi". Try find an Arvanite etymology. You won't be able to, since those are two greek words.
@Mandobird1 Sorry. The Population of the peloponnese was about 400.000 and Attica +Boitia about 200.000. keep in mind most of the Arvanite settler's didn't stay due to death and re settlement. Keep also in mind, that even if I call them Arvanites, not all settlers were Arvanites. And the venicians Made this clear in Their invitations. So the number of mostly Arvanite settler's was 100.000 and out of them the minority remains. Modern Genetics seems to agree with this as well. Albanians are genetically closer in Gedmatch, and K36 engines to macedonian Greeks and Greek From thessaly. Although no official DNA study had been made. No settlement took place in macedonia and Thessaly (thessaly at the time meant more.pindus).
@Mandobird1 The albanian origin of Arvanites, is there, but it varies From group to group and it far far far From being the dominant ancestry of Greek Arvanites, with it mostly being from local southern Greeks. Their family name's, dialects and village name's suggest great intermixing between them and the local majorities and show a clear albanisation (I am still waiting for you to ask me more about it btw). I think you are in denial. Your points are coming out of thin air. "Albanian stock". This is... Wrong. If you haven't understand yet, I really can't do anything more. I've read every demographic research about Greece in the 19th century (literally) and you are worng There as well. I understand that you've grown up learning things are a certain way and that national myths are strong etc... But a discussion were you scream "ARVANITES PURE 2000% ILLYRIANS" is beneath me. I've studied the subject, I've shared it with university students and teachers of albanian descent. Sorry for not liking what you are hearing. Also, just saying that albania has as many vlachs as Greece has. As long as you don't offer me data on the numbers of vlachs, you are saying nothing. I wouldn't need to prove that ancient Greeks are directly related with Modern Greeks, DNA has done that already, if you are questioning the DNA research, then off you go to the multinational 20 member team From five different laboratories Who did it, and share your views about ancient and modern genetics.
I am sure they'll be delighted with an albanian having his national pride hurt that his southern neighbors have a rich history. In the meantime, I will be waiting for a similar DNA research declaring Greeks predominantly Slavs, Albanians or Turks. All points Made by people like you, with usually a limited understanding of history.I really can't understand how you went from being interested about the facts and history, to being offended. I didn't aim to offend you. Your opinion is yours, and everybody is entitled to an opinion. But, history is history, and genetics are Genetics. Nothing can change that. If you feel that the Arvanites are PURE Albanians, I'll say to you What I said to an albanian history student a few years ago, When we talked about the subject. I told him. "Debunk me or don't contact me again". I haven't heard from him since. Because When I searched the subject, I did without passion or prejudice. Without wanting to prove the origin of the Arvanites, I merely focused on Their settlement. And I did a Damn good job. You are not the first to be upset by what I am saying, I've had Greeks call me communist Shit, and I had albanians calling greek nationalist.As per usual, When Both sides are angry at me, and offer me only insult's, instead of arguments, I know I am right.
Not sure all this adds up. Minoans are not Mycenaean who are not Greek....With each new wave of invaders (if that is the right word to describe tribal migrations) you are going to get a mixture of old and new...some Mycenaean would have fled to other lands but most would have lacked the means to do so....Mycenaean Athens was never destroyed by the incoming Dorians so here in particular one might find the best opportunity for assimilation of just about everybody...the Achaean region is particular was said to be a sort of last ditch safe haven for peoples being displaced by the Dorians....so the story is not complete and will go on and on.